You should be aware that the DT-900 has 3 coils, and some even suggest that that's why it doesnt work properly with the nexus 4 (like if it keeps switching coils trying to get the one with best link).
[Q] Nexus 4 now Qi registered (but Europe and HW Rev 12)
- Thread starter purnah
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You should be aware that the DT-900 has 3 coils, and some even suggest that that's why it doesnt work properly with the nexus 4 (like if it keeps switching coils trying to get the one with best link).
You have a point..
Hey Dark_sat,
You are absoultely right that the 3coil config keeps looking for the coil which transfers power most efficiently. This is done because the 3coil config has to allow for spatial freedom. Now here's the difference between how a 3coil charger behaves with the N4 as compared to a Lumia920 (or any other Qi phone/tablet):
Lumia920: The charger will keep looking for the best possible coil and transfer power accordingly. The Qi phone will receive 5W of power. All along, the power transfer is not stopped. The ping cycle is about 400ms and even when another coil is selected for the next cycle, the transition is seamless and no point is the power transfer stopped to switch between coils!. That is how the Qi standard mandates selection of coils by the software.
N4: The losses in the N4 are too high for a Qi device, this means that the charger software interrupts the transfer, starts afresh to re-establish a new power transfer contract, selects the best coil out of the 3 and again starts charging. Repeat. This is what we see as cycling. IMO, this is the reason HW_Rev11 and earlier might not have got the Qi certification, but I may be wrong. It's quite frustrating because the better chargers are certainly those that allow for spatial freedom. I mean, if I still have to align my phone to get it to charge, isn't that as bad as the hassle of plugging in??!!
Why I say the losses are high in the N4 is because I've tested the charger electronics with various thresholds, even allowing upto 800mW of losses, which is 16% of the total 5W the N4 receives. This is about the maximum loss the Qi standard will allow...and the N4 still cycles between charging and no power at this threshold. When I hardcode the charger not to bother about losses at all, then there's no stoppage of power, although the search for best coil for power transfer is still on, as it should be, and when coils are switched, there is no interruption.
For the Qitah, we've come up with a special variant for N4's which will not have the cycling issue. It will still have 3coils and the spatial freedom they bring, and the form design remains the same, allowing for a great experience..well we're actually trying to eliminate any experience from charging
Thanks for the input, highly appreciate
keep an eye out for us at facebook : projectqitah
Hey Dark_sat,
You are absoultely right that the 3coil config keeps looking for the coil which transfers power most efficiently. This is done because the 3coil config has to allow for spatial freedom. Now here's the difference between how a 3coil charger behaves with the N4 as compared to a Lumia920 (or any other Qi phone/tablet):
Lumia920: The charger will keep looking for the best possible coil and transfer power accordingly. The Qi phone will receive 5W of power. All along, the power transfer is not stopped. The ping cycle is about 400ms and even when another coil is selected for the next cycle, the transition is seamless and no point is the power transfer stopped to switch between coils!. That is how the Qi standard mandates selection of coils by the software.
N4: The losses in the N4 are too high for a Qi device, this means that the charger software interrupts the transfer, starts afresh to re-establish a new power transfer contract, selects the best coil out of the 3 and again starts charging. Repeat. This is what we see as cycling. IMO, this is the reason HW_Rev11 and earlier might not have got the Qi certification, but I may be wrong. It's quite frustrating because the better chargers are certainly those that allow for spatial freedom. I mean, if I still have to align my phone to get it to charge, isn't that as bad as the hassle of plugging in??!!
Why I say the losses are high in the N4 is because I've tested the charger electronics with various thresholds, even allowing upto 800mW of losses, which is 16% of the total 5W the N4 receives. This is about the maximum loss the Qi standard will allow...and the N4 still cycles between charging and no power at this threshold. When I hardcode the charger not to bother about losses at all, then there's no stoppage of power, although the search for best coil for power transfer is still on, as it should be, and when coils are switched, there is no interruption.
For the Qitah, we've come up with a special variant for N4's which will not have the cycling issue. It will still have 3coils and the spatial freedom they bring, and the form design remains the same, allowing for a great experience..well we're actually trying to eliminate any experience from charging
Thanks for the input, highly appreciate
keep an eye out for us at facebook : projectqitah
Hey Dark_sat,
You are absoultely right that the 3coil config keeps looking for the coil which transfers power most efficiently. This is done because the 3coil config has to allow for spatial freedom. Now here's the difference between how a 3coil charger behaves with the N4 as compared to a Lumia920 (or any other Qi phone/tablet):
Lumia920: The charger will keep looking for the best possible coil and transfer power accordingly. The Qi phone will receive 5W of power. All along, the power transfer is not stopped. The ping cycle is about 400ms and even when another coil is selected for the next cycle, the transition is seamless and no point is the power transfer stopped to switch between coils!. That is how the Qi standard mandates selection of coils by the software.
N4: The losses in the N4 are too high for a Qi device, this means that the charger software interrupts the transfer, starts afresh to re-establish a new power transfer contract, selects the best coil out of the 3 and again starts charging. Repeat. This is what we see as cycling. IMO, this is the reason HW_Rev11 and earlier might not have got the Qi certification, but I may be wrong. It's quite frustrating because the better chargers are certainly those that allow for spatial freedom. I mean, if I still have to align my phone to get it to charge, isn't that as bad as the hassle of plugging in??!!
Why I say the losses are high in the N4 is because I've tested the charger electronics with various thresholds, even allowing upto 800mW of losses, which is 16% of the total 5W the N4 receives. This is about the maximum loss the Qi standard will allow...and the N4 still cycles between charging and no power at this threshold. When I hardcode the charger not to bother about losses at all, then there's no stoppage of power, although the search for best coil for power transfer is still on, as it should be, and when coils are switched, there is no interruption.
For the Qitah, we've come up with a special variant for N4's which will not have the cycling issue. It will still have 3coils and the spatial freedom they bring, and the form design remains the same, allowing for a great experience..well we're actually trying to eliminate any experience from charging
Thanks for the input, highly appreciate
keep an eye out for us at facebook : projectqitah
Wow, very technically rich explanation, I liked it!
It seems you got it all. It may be a wrong assumption, but what changed between the certified N4 and the non-certified one is the coil on the phone, right? This way, by just replacing the coil it would work, huh?
Another thing is about spacial freedom. On the orb that I own, it is very good, I never get it wrong, you just put the phone to rest on it and it takes over, no need to realign or anything like that.
Hope your project takes off!
Thanks
Thanks a bunch for the compliments..and encouragement made my day! :laugh:
Replacing the coil with a Qi certified one seems like a solution.
Btw, is the orb too sticky sometimes? Or too slippery sometimes? I've heard this issue from a lot of folks..I love how the orb looks and feels, but this last mile thing has left me in doubt!
Cheers!
Thanks a bunch for the compliments..and encouragement
made my day! :laugh:Replacing the coil with a Qi certified one seems like a solution.
Btw, is the orb too sticky sometimes? Or too slippery sometimes? I've heard this issue from a lot of folks..I love how the orb looks and feels, but this last mile thing has left me in doubt!
Cheers!
Thanks a bunch for the compliments..and encouragement
Replacing the coil with a Qi certified one seems like a solution.
Btw, is the orb too sticky sometimes? Or too slippery sometimes? I've heard this issue from a lot of folks..I love how the orb looks and feels, but this last mile thing has left me in doubt!
Cheers!
I use a TPU case so the user experience must be a little different, but no, my Orb is not slippery, more on the sticky side. The rubber band is like a dust magnet, so you must clean it periodically, otherwise it will not stick properly. I've also heard a lot of people complaining about the phone slipping off the plate, and I think this design was not though thoroughly enough.
Flat plates may not look as sexy, but they don't pose this problems. And on the usability standpoint, let's be realistic, you won't use your phone on an Orb anyways, and if you do, it's very hard to do it. I really liked the design on the new LG Qi charger (the little round plate), I think it's a good looking design (and functional), just as the Nokia plates are.
Orbvious mistake
I've heard the dust magnet problem often..although I feel maintaining the charger is less disturbing than if the charger lifts off (and then crashes on your desk) when you try to lift your phone..that's a nightmare!
Bang on that the incline design needs to be thought through thoroughly..I've written in my blog that's exactly the reason why most of the chargers we see are flat forms.
I've tried to achieve betterment through design, let's see how it goes
I'd say that inclines, if designed right, can really provide a better, more productive experience - notifications and texting/whatsap like tasks shouldn't mean I have to pick up my phone. I'm too busy in my other screens for that
At least you've gotta have that choice. Wireless chargers of today are trying only to minimize management from a redundant task - charging. For them to be sexy, they'll have to go beyond this brief.
I do dream of the day when no charging is required..for that either wireless charging has to go the WiFi distance (which i think is less probable) or supercharger like technology will replace batteries (seems probable in early next decade)
I've heard the dust magnet problem often..although I feel maintaining the charger is less disturbing than if the charger lifts off (and then crashes on your desk) when you try to lift your phone..that's a nightmare!
Bang on that the incline design needs to be thought through thoroughly..I've written in my blog that's exactly the reason why most of the chargers we see are flat forms.
I've tried to achieve betterment through design, let's see how it goes
I'd say that inclines, if designed right, can really provide a better, more productive experience - notifications and texting/whatsap like tasks shouldn't mean I have to pick up my phone. I'm too busy in my other screens for that
At least you've gotta have that choice. Wireless chargers of today are trying only to minimize management from a redundant task - charging. For them to be sexy, they'll have to go beyond this brief.
I do dream of the day when no charging is required..for that either wireless charging has to go the WiFi distance (which i think is less probable) or supercharger like technology will replace batteries (seems probable in early next decade)
I've heard the dust magnet problem often..although I feel maintaining the charger is less disturbing than if the charger lifts off (and then crashes on your desk) when you try to lift your phone..that's a nightmare!
Bang on that the incline design needs to be thought through thoroughly..I've written in my blog that's exactly the reason why most of the chargers we see are flat forms.
I've tried to achieve betterment through design, let's see how it goes
I'd say that inclines, if designed right, can really provide a better, more productive experience - notifications and texting/whatsap like tasks shouldn't mean I have to pick up my phone. I'm too busy in my other screens for that
At least you've gotta have that choice. Wireless chargers of today are trying only to minimize management from a redundant task - charging. For them to be sexy, they'll have to go beyond this brief.
I do dream of the day when no charging is required..for that either wireless charging has to go the WiFi distance (which i think is less probable) or supercharger like technology will replace batteries (seems probable in early next decade)
My rubber band sits between sticky enough to not let the phone slip but not sticky enough it doesn't really stick to it.
I don't think this design is very good though. The phone is wobbly when it's on it, so using it will make the phone move (also, how the hell are you supposed to unlock the phone? They didn't think of this!). Maybe a magnet approach would be better, BUT, it would very likely be problematic because you would have to hold the plate to remove the phone.
I'm with the idea that if a person is busy enough that they can't let the phone charge for a while without using it, they probably should use a fast wired charger. The Orb is a lot more for convenience than anything else, and I love it. I also believe the future is wireless charging, or no charging at all!
Wow, you're the happiest Orb owner I've met! I think I might get an orb too
Not available in India though The magnet approach is not so elegant - a) because the hold will be different for different weighted and sized phones. Palm touchstone worked because the charger and the phone were proprietary and not open designs
b) the phone design gets affected a lot - that would deter phone mfrs from adopting Qi charging
The WPC has, since the beginning, focused on keeping design demands on the phone side minimal while putting all the restrictions on the chargers side.
In fact, with the Qi 1.1 specification, WirelessPowerConsortium has advised manufacturers against use of magnet based solutions!
Cheers!
Wow, you're the happiest Orb owner I've met! I think I might get an orb too
The magnet approach is not so elegant - a) because the hold will be different for different weighted and sized phones. Palm touchstone worked because the charger and the phone were proprietary and not open designs
b) the phone design gets affected a lot - that would deter phone mfrs from adopting Qi charging
The WPC has, since the beginning, focused on keeping design demands on the phone side minimal while putting all the restrictions on the chargers side.
In fact, with the Qi 1.1 specification, WirelessPowerConsortium has advised manufacturers against use of magnet based solutions!
Cheers!
Yes, magnet based solutions are not very good regarding interoperability. I think we're in a kind of middle ground right now, where there's a lot of different wireless power solutions with very different specifications. It seems that the energizer one is getting a lot of traction, so who knows where it will leave Qi in the future. One thing I know, I'll not go back to wires.
The Orb is also not available in Brazil, I bought it when I was in the US. It seems that these new technologies don't get a lot of traction outside the US.
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4Thanks for the tip. I got in touch with the Wireless Power Consortium and they quickly gave a pretty clear reply.
My question was "I saw that LG's Nexus 4 phone had recently been registered as a low power receiver. The registration specified HW Rev 12. Do you know if earlier HW Revs are not compatible? Or whether the HW has changed to add Qi compatibility in Rev 12. I have a Rev 10 Nexus 4, and found that it does not work with the certified Nokia DT 900 transmitter. Rather than charge, it constantly cycles on and off connecting and disconnecting."
And their reply is "You have correctly noticed that the Google Nexus 4 was recently added to the on-line database that identifies all Qi compatible products. Although the earlier Google Nexus 4 model is not in that database, the earlier model (the one you own) does work correctly with all Qi wireless chargers except the Nokia DT 900. The revision of the Nexus 4 that is now certified will work correctly with the Nokia DT 900."
So if you want a Nexus that works with the Nokia charger, you need Rev 12.11
Yes there was a manual but I can't remember where I read it. I think someone posted it on reddit. A few different models all had the same line in their manuals too. Though, to clarify - it said something along the lines of "Will charge your device to 100% and then 'intelligently' detect that the phone has been charged, turning off the QI charger to save power". Essentially, it means that the device will stop charging at 100% until it reaches around 89-91% then it will be begin charging again. Rinse and repeat.
EDIT: As far as I remember, there was no other useful information. It was just general stuff like "Plug it in to power it on". Nothing interesting about how it works or troubleshooting.1seems like there is some confusion in this thread, phones that are rev 10 and 11 will still work with all other qi chargers except the Nokia one. Dont assume that rev. 12 HW is better just because it works with the nokia. It might just be something simple that makes it compatible with the Nokia qi charger. Its not a hardware defect but maybe google will exchange the phone for you if you tell them that you have a nokia charger but just because there is a new hardware revision doesnt mean that google is obligated to exchange all old revisions.1I'm not a very happy camper reading this.
Google should offer free Orb chargers to everyone that has rev10 & 11.... Because the last time I checked the Nexus 4 was sold to me as QI-COMPLIANT and compatible with ALL Qi chargers when, apparently, that's not the case.
Anyway, I will definitely be RMA-ing my Nexus 4 the second there's actual owner confirmation that HW rev12 does indeed work with Nokia chargers. Screw this.
Sent from my Nexus 4 or Nexus 7
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